Victor mensace and Ney Torres on how to create infinite returns in real estate

Victor Menasce on how to create infinite returns in real estate 

Ney Torres: [00:00:00] Mr. Victor Menasce. I'm really really excited today because Victor is one of my mentors. I don't know if you know this, Victor, but I actually listened to your podcast every day. Victor has a podcast and he's one very smart person. Can you tell us, Victor, a little bit about you and your background?

Victor Menasce: [00:00:20] Well, great to be here Ney. And yes, I got into the world of real estate investing from a different path that was not the usual path. 

[00:00:29] I started my career in the world of technology. I started my career as an electrical engineer designing microprocessors. So, if you ever made a phone call in North America after 1991, about 52% of the phone calls in North America were processed by a chip that I designed.

[00:00:47] If you've flown on an Airbus aircraft, the seatback displays where you watch the movies and the TV shows, that display has my microprocessor in it. 

[00:00:57] If you've ever used a Wi-Fi access point from Cisco or from Apple, that access point has a processor that I was responsible for. And the list goes on and on and on. 

[00:01:09] In about 2009, I was working on a project in Japan. I was leading an engineering team designing chips that were used in cell phones and data cards and things like that. We were building a new cellular network in Japan. I was literally traveling back and forth to Tokyo every two weeks, and it was burning me out.

[00:01:31] I mean it was a long trip. I mean it's 13 hours in the air, you know, forget about the time zones. I just wasn't spending time with my family. It was burning me out. And so, at that point, I resigned my position as vice president of engineering and decided to make all the hard-left turn in my career and go into real estate investing on a fulltime basis.

[00:01:52] So that was 2009. Here we are today. 

Ney Torres: [00:01:56] Can I ask you something? Because I have the same problem. How long did you last travelling 13 hours every time?

Victor Menasce: [00:02:06] Well, we did that for almost two years. 

Ney Torres: [00:02:10] Oh wow. That's amazing. 

Victor Menasce: [00:02:11] Every couple of weeks. So, I made, I don’t know, 20 trips to Tokyo in a year and a half. I told my boss, you know, I just couldn't go. I couldn't stomach the idea because I'm having to catch a four-minute connection through Shinjuku station in Tokyo. 

Ney Torres: [00:02:26] I also had the same problem. I travel to Europe this year probably around six or seven times. What I didn't know is that you kind of go crazy because jet lag… When you go once a year, it's nice, even fun, but it takes me like two weeks to just get acclimatize.

[00:02:48] You don't sleep at night. Your whole sleep cycle goes crazy. That really is a big toll to pay, you know? Did you actually get burnout? 

Victor Menasce: [00:02:59] What I found was on a 13-hour flight, you can actually get about seven hours sleep. So, it's easier for me to fly to Japan than it is to fly to Europe because a flight to Europe is maybe an eight or nine hour flight and you'd take off in the evening, you arrive the next morning, so you lose a whole night's sleep. And maybe if you're lucky, you get two hours of poor-quality sleep. So, you're really wrecked the next day and it takes you several days to recover like you said. 

[00:03:24] I found that on a 13-hour trip to Tokyo, I leave in the morning, I arrive in the evening. So, I go have dinner, go get to my hotel. I've slept seven hours on a 13-hour flight so I'm usually pretty well adjusted by the next day. But still, it's very hard on the body and it got tiresome, I have to say. 

Ney Torres: [00:03:43] You had to come back home, right? 

Victor Menasce: [00:03:45] Yup. Yeah, absolutely. 

Ney Torres: [00:03:49] Wow. Okay. Very well, Victor. So that was a new impressive introduction. So, you get into real estate on 2009. I understand your first investment was in Phoenix, Arizona.

Victor Menasce: [00:04:01] Actually, no. My first investment was local. My first international investment was in Phoenix, and we'll talk about that one in a minute. And, you know, you lived in Phoenix for a number of years. It’s surprising we didn't run into each other at [as-re-ah 00:04:13], but I love the Phoenix market. And at some point, would love to get back into the Phoenix market.

[00:04:20] But I started locally here in Ottawa, Canada, the nation's capital. We have a micro market of embassy staff, parliamentary staff, military officers who are here on a medium-term basis. And so, they're looking for an executive suite type product. A 12month unfurnished lease is of no use to them. And spending four grand a month at a suite hotel is of no use to them because it's above their housing allowance. 

[00:04:48] So, I figured out what the market price was, exactly how much rent they could afford based on their housing allowance, and decided to deliver a product that I generated a good profit on at that price point within walking distance of parliament. So that's where I started in real estate, is taking a very focused business approach to solving a very particular problem. 

[00:05:09] And that was, you know, those roughly 3000 people coming through the nation’s capital every year looking for that particular product. So, I had the market size and what the price point was, and it was a good business. It wasn't a great business, but it was a good business. And that's where I started. 

Ney Torres: [00:05:25] What kind of margins did you have in that one? Because let me tell you this. I'm right now going to Utech in Netherlands. I'm starting to invest in Netherlands because the financing is just amazing. Even better than the US. 

[00:05:41] I've seen exactly that niche of medium-term rentals, let's call it that way. What were your margins back then and why did you say it’s a so-so business, not like an excellent business? 

Victor Menasce: [00:05:52] Well, I think there's a number of things that have changed. Number one, when I started, Airbnb didn't really exist. So today, approximately 20-25% of Airbnb's business is medium term stays. It's not just short-term nightly stays. 

[00:06:08] So Airbnb is providing a very strong platform, and there's a lot of folks in the short-term rental business that are also willing to rent on a medium-term basis. So, I think there's a lot more competition today than there was when I started. That's reason number one. 

[00:06:23] Reason number two is that when I look at the return on capital… My market's expensive. The Ottawa market's quite expensive. And so, I was tying up a lot of capital for pretty decent return but it wasn't as good as I could get, for example, investing in Phoenix. 

[00:06:41] So, I started to sell my product here in the Ottawa market and did very well with that. I started buying. We [unclear 00:06:21] the capital south of the border because let's not forget, we're talking about 2010, 2011, 2012 when the market was so distressed in many many parts of the United States that you could literally buy things for a third of construction costs. 

[00:07:05] And at that point you said to yourself, “Well, I've got way more upside than downside.” This is probably the opportunity of a lifetime, which it was.

Ney Torres: [00:07:14] Indeed, it was. I remember my cap rates back then in a single-family home was 20%. 

Victor Menasce: [00:07:20] Yeah, absolutely. 

Ney Torres: [00:07:21] No, doubt. Wow. If you turn over assets, 20%, that was crazy. Do you think we're going to see days like that again? 

Victor Menasce: [00:07:29] Well, I don't think so unless there's some other debt crisis. I mean when people talk about it as being a real estate crisis, I don't consider having been a real estate crisis. It was a debt crisis in the fact that the banks on a very large scale became almost insolvent. 

[00:07:45] They really had to tighten their lending practices. So, what happened was there was no credit available and that limited the buyers in the marketplace to cash buyers. So if your only buyers are cash buyers and you've got a whole lot of sellers, prices can only do one thing and that's prices go down because there's more sellers than buyers. 

[00:08:03] When lending opened up again, prices restore to pretty much where they were in 2007 which is kind of proof that it was a liquidity issue, a debt issue, more so than a real estate issue. It was an artificial crash created by some very poor lending practices. 

[00:08:22] And you know, the banks needed to get their act together. I think for the most part they have. Question is, will there be another debt bubble? I think there will. Will it have a similar catastrophic effect on the debt markets?

[00:08:36] My personal belief is that the next big bubble to burst is going to be sovereign debt. And by sovereign debt, we're talking about governments. Governments printing too much money. Especially, if they're borrowing money in foreign currencies. That's a killer. You know, Argentina has been borrowing money in US dollars. Turkey has been borrowing money and denominated in both euros and US dollars. When those countries tip over, you're going to see a ripple through the financial markets that I think is going to be hard for some markets to recover. 

Ney Torres: [00:09:10] Yeah. I went through one of those in Ecuador. We destroy our currency, and that's an interesting podcast for some other day. But, yeah. I mean basically you run for assets as soon as you can. Right? 

Victor Menasce: [00:09:24] Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean because what ends up happening in hyperinflation, we've seen it many many different times play out through history. When you have hyperinflation, three things get wiped out. 

[00:09:37] Number one, savings get wiped out. People's income. When they're on fixed income, their earning power, their buying power gets wiped out. And then the third thing that gets wiped out is debt because the currency gets devalued. 

[00:09:50] The fixed assets kind of remain the same. They're there, you know. A four-bedroom house with two bathrooms is still a four-bedroom house with two assets. It doesn't matter what's happening to the currency. It stays the same. 

[00:10:04] A brick of gold is still a brick of gold before and after. So hard assets generally retain their value. They tend to go up in price and people think they're going up in value. They're not going up in value. What you're seeing is a reflection of the devaluation of the currency.

Ney Torres: [00:10:20] Exactly. But you just answered the next question I was going to have, which is what's the next bubble, but great. Before we go back to real estate, I want to get a little to the side because this is very important. 

[00:10:34] What was your wife saying to you the moment you said, “You know what, I'm going to go to real estate.”

Victor Menasce: [00:10:41] That's a great question. She came with me to a few seminars, so she was able to participate in the process. It wasn't her passion, but she at least understood it. And she basically said, “Okay Victor, you need to do this. If this is something you want to do, I’ll support you. I’ll make sure that we've got enough savings to withstand the drop in income.” 

[00:11:07] We thought we did. It turns out we didn't. So we spent, you know, several years burning through savings, hoping that the income would catch up. 

[00:11:15] And, you know, my advice to the listeners, if you're thinking about making a career change, my advice to you is to hold onto your employment income as long as possible, even if it means taking a portion of your employment income and hiring somebody to work for you to do a lot of the work, a lot of the hands on day to day work that you might consider to be your job. 

[00:11:39] Get someone else to do it, but hang on to that income as long as possible because you're going to go from whatever your income is to zero overnight and things always take longer than you might imagine for that income stream to get replaced.

Ney Torres: [00:11:54] That is so true. Yeah, because this podcast is about financial freedom. I think it's those self-questions or hard questions really that nobody ever addresses, you know. They speak about passive income and all of that when it's really, number one decision is to have your significant other in line with you, right? Or your chance is zero to go wherever you want to go because getting there is really hard and it takes years. 

Victor Menasce: [00:12:21] It's really hard. It takes years. The other thing is the notion of passive income is a little bit of a misnomer because there is no such thing as a passive business. Even when you buy a piece of real estate, it's still an active business.

Ney Torres: [00:12:38] Exactly. Nobody ever says that, and that's something I really want to make a point with you right now, Victor. There's no such thing as passive health. There's no such thing as passive income. It's you just kind of changing careers to something that creates a different kind of income. Right? 

Victor Menasce: [00:12:56] Exactly. Now, you could invest passively in an active business, but there's still an underlying act of business. So, you can take your money, you can take $50,000 and you can hand it over to someone else that's managing the asset and element. They'll mail you a check every month or every quarter. And that starts to look like mailbox money. It starts to look like passive income, but it's really a passive investment in an active business. That's not the same. 

Ney Torres: [00:13:21] Love it. Love it. So that gives us an introduction to when we met and what we started doing in Philadelphia. Can you explain as a little bit what is the Philadelphia concept?

Victor Menasce: [00:13:34] I don't want to make it specific to that market. The project that you and I were partnered on, what happened to be in Philadelphia, but this is a strategy that we developed in the Philadelphia market that frankly works pretty much anywhere. And that's a strategy that we call buy on the line, move the line.

[00:13:50] Now that line is the line between the really hot, very fashionable neighborhood. You go a couple of blocks too far and you're in the ghetto, you're in the hood. Virtually every city in America, most cities around the world have that line. For the listeners at home, wherever you may be sitting listening to this particular podcast, I'm sure you can imagine that line in your own home city. You go a little bit too far and all of a sudden, you know the cars aren't as nice. There's a graffiti on the shop windows. Things change in a very very short time span. 

Ney Torres: [00:14:29] And it's super obvious. 

Victor Menasce: [00:14:31] It's very obvious. 

Ney Torres: [00:14:33] It's just a gut feeling, right? 

Victor Menasce: [00:14:34] Exactly. You can feel it, right. Now, there's always ebbs and flows. There are neighborhoods that come up. There are neighborhoods that go down.

[00:14:42] You want to figure out where that trend is and you want to buy just on the wrong side of the line on an area that is up and coming. So, when you buy on the wrong side of the line, you can usually buy that property for pennies on the dollar. But then when you redevelop it, the only comparable properties are in the hot neighborhood next door.

[00:15:04] So what we did in Philadelphia, and we did this on over 80 properties, is we bought properties just on the wrong side of the line. And in this particular instance, there were a couple of different lines. There was a line moving west from Temple university. And that line was moving at about a block a year. There’s another line moving North from center city.

[00:15:26] And so, we managed to exploit this boundary and put a little bit of scale behind it. Now, you've got to make sure that when you're trying to redevelop that line, that it is a moveable line. Sometimes the line is a municipal boundary, or a school district, or a freeway, or a railway line. Those are not going to move.

[00:15:50] But if the line is arbitrary. If the line is there for no particular reason, it can be moved. And oftentimes what will happen is people say, “You know what? I'd love to live in the hot neighborhood, but I can't afford $2,000 a month. I'd love to. I'm willing to stay a block away from the really great neighborhood and pay only $1800 a month or $1600 a month and get a little bit of a discount and I'm close enough to the great neighborhood. It's an up and coming area that I'm willing to live just a block away from the great neighborhood.” That's how you get those valuations. 

[00:16:23] What we found after having done this now a couple of dozen times is that you get valuations approaching the really hot neighborhood next door. Maybe not 100 cents on the dollar, but you get 97, 98 cents on the dollar in terms of the valuation of those new properties.

Ney Torres: [00:16:42] How much of a discount will you say you bought those same properties? 

Victor Menasce: [00:16:48] Ten cents on the dollar. 

Ney Torres: [00:16:50] Ten cents on the dollar. Construction costs? 

Victor Menasce: [00:16:54] Yeah. Now obviously, over the years that we've been doing this now, we started in Philadelphia in 2011, we've done an awful lot of development over the years. And to be frank, when we started, you could buy things for below construction cost. So, it didn't make sense to build when we first started. 

[00:17:10] What we did instead is we took buildings that were in very bad shape. We demolished the interior of the building, but we kept the exterior structure. So, we kept the foundation, we kept the exterior structure, and we put a new building on the inside. So, we're able to maintain some of the most expensive parts of the building and put a new building on the inside. We're able to make the numbers work doing it that way at the beginning.

[00:17:33] And then as prices came up, as values came up, we were able to start building brand new construction, even just from vacant lots. And of course, construction costs have gone up. When we started doing pure ground up new construction back in 2012, we are building for $88 a square foot.

[00:17:54] Today, pretty much most communities across the United States, you're building around 118 to $122 a square foot for wood-frame stick-built construction. I'm not talking Class A. I'm talking about a Class B product that's, you know, good quality finishes, stainless steel appliances, granite countertops, hardwood flooring. So, good quality product at around $118 to $120 a square foot. 

[00:18:22] But in order for that to work, the rents had to come up because there's a big difference between $88 a square foot and $120 a square foot. That's almost a third more. So, rents needed to come up by that or more in order for the number still to work.

Ney Torres: [00:18:38] So, the first thing there is to stay away from C property. 

Victor Menasce: [00:18:42] Absolutely. Yeah. I know people that like C properties and they've made money in C properties. I have never lost money in A Class or B Class, and I've only lost money in C Class. And here's the reason why. 

[00:18:58] The expenses don't care how much rent you're getting. When your electric utility sends your electricity bill, they don't care whether you're getting 600 a month for rent or whether you're getting 2000 a month for rent. Your electricity bill is going to be exactly the same. It is just based on consumption. 

[00:19:16] When your water heater dies, it doesn't care whether you're getting 600 a month in rent or whether you're getting 2000 a month in rent. It's going to cost you $800 to replace that water heater. It doesn't matter what your rent was. 

[00:19:28] And so what happens is in a C Class property, when your rents are so low, it's going to take you, instead of it taking you a third of a month to buy back that new water heater, it's going to take you two months to buy back that water heater. 

[00:19:39] When your air conditioner dies. You know, you were in Phoenix. A new air conditioner is 3500 bucks. If you're only getting 600 a month, it's going to take you six months to buy back that new air conditioner. Whereas if I'm in a higher value property, maybe it takes me a month or two months to buy back that air conditioner. That's the difference. 

Ney Torres: [00:19:59] That is true. That is true. I can also subscribe to that. I've only lost money in real estate when I went to C or a low C.  

[00:20:10] So you just explained to us the concept that's really simple. You buy in the line and then move the line. Right? Somehow.

Victor Menasce: [00:20:17] Exactly.

Ney Torres: [00:20:18] How long did it take you to learn… I mean you learn the rest of your library how to develop property in a better way, but how long did it take you to be confident with the numbers?

Victor Menasce: [00:20:31] I think after we had done a couple of projects in a particular neighborhood, we knew we could see the value creation and we knew what the appraised value would be. So, when we went to the bank on completion of the project, to put the permanent financing in place, we were very confident in the way the bank would look at the project. And that gave us the confidence to simply multiply it. 

[00:20:57] So, you know, it took us maybe a year or two of having gone through one or two cycles of that kind of development. And then once we had done that, we said, “Okay. We have a system here now.” 

[00:21:09] Now the other thing that's very important, at least the way we do, this is not the only way to do it but it's the way we approach it. Our goal is to hold the properties long-term. We're not in this to go and just flip an apartment building or something like that. Although, you know, you can do that and you can make money. 

Ney Torres: [00:21:27] And why will that be? 

Victor Menasce: [00:21:28] Well, whenever you go into an investment, you want an exit strategy, but there's more than one kind of exit.

[00:21:35] When you sell a property, that's usually a taxable event. Whereas, if you create enough value that you can recover your initial investment in a refinance, a refinance is not a taxable event. 

[00:21:48] I'll give you a very simple example. Let's just imagine for a moment that you built a new apartment building for $700,000. And that apartment building, when it's all leased up is worth $1 million. You can go back to the bank and you can say, “Mr. Banker, my building is worth $1 million. I have paid 700,000 to build it. That's including the land and all the construction and the architectural plans and everything. It cost me $700,000. Would you be willing to refinance this property at 70% loan to value?” Meaning, I'm going to take this million-dollar valuation and you give me back 700,000. 

[00:22:32] Most banks will say yes. So then at that point, you've recovered 100% of your initial investment. You've got no cash tied up in the property. You still have 30% equity and the only money in the project is the bank's money, not yours. So, you can return the money to your bank account, or you can return the money to your investors, if you've got investors working with you. 

[00:22:54] And guess what? The next thing they're going to say is, “Well, do you have another project for me? You can take that capital. You can redeploy it. And you can do it again.”

[00:23:02] So that's the formula that we use project after project. It doesn't matter whether we're building a five unit building, a 10 unit building, or a 200 unit complex. That's the math we use every single time. 

Ney Torres: [00:23:16] Perfect. Yes. I do want to make a point to everybody listening. And I just want people to realize how rich people think. I call them rich people. It’s just more sophisticated people. 

[00:23:29] They don’t want to sell the asset because then you get taxed. Well, you get taxed. Well, tax is the biggest expenses in a person's lifetime. So, you really had to put an eye on it. And the longer you hold, the less risk you have, right?

[00:23:46] You don't have to be redeveloping land, fixing, flipping, because it's a lot of action. But at the end of the day, you would turn back and you look at that, you'll find that, you know, most of that went to Uncle Sam. But it could be taxes, right? That's what I mean. 

[00:24:06] And what Victor is explaining right now is he went back to the bank, got all his money back in every project, and then some, and had a free property, and the renters are paying for the mortgage. And you probably also have some cashflow, right, Victor? 

Victor Menasce: [00:24:20] Well, exactly. Exactly. In fact, the bank requires it. You have to have what's called a debt coverage ratio, which means that your profit has to be larger than the cost of servicing the debt, both principal and interest. So, they want to see that margin, that profit margin.

[00:24:36] If they don't see that profit margin, they're not going to do the loan. They will work with you to design the project in such a way that you're guaranteed to have a certain minimum profit margin. 

[00:24:48] When you do, what happens is if you're professional about the way you manage your properties and you're increasing the rent appropriately every year, might be 3% or 4% whatever it is with inflation, your expenses are going up with inflation. Your expenses go up, let's say, by 3% or 4% and the rents are going up by 3% or 4% but your debt stays fixed. That's the same. That doesn't change. 

[00:25:14] If you're paying a thousand a month for your loan payment, you're paying a thousand a month in year one and you're paying a thousand a month in year 25 of the loan. That doesn't change. 

[00:25:23] So the rent increase actually increases the profit margin year over year because the expenses are only a small percentage of the total cost of carrying that property. So, your profit margins increase over time. And when that happens, so does the value of the property. And that's the beauty. That's the beauty. The value increases. 

Ney Torres: [00:25:44] Exactly. Why rich people become richer, right? Just that buying hold long term if you know what you're doing. That's the way to become rich. It's not like taking a lot of action every day trying to fix and flip properties. It’s just buying and holding and getting the next one, getting the next one, getting the next one.

[00:26:08] That's super interesting. But there's a very important key here. How do you go back to the bank? Because the Wells Fargo will not like these deals or maybe they're not looking into this. What I have found as a developer is that if you are not creating a relationship with a small bank, they're not going to understand what you're trying to do. 

Victor Menasce: [00:26:35] What I've found is that every single form of capital, it doesn't matter whether it's bank capital or investor capital, it has a particular formula that they're looking for. And so, you've got to know going in, is this a formula that's going to work? Is there a fit?

[00:26:51] Some banks do construction loans, others don't. You know, some of the major banks are very conservative because they simply can't take the time to investigate local markets and become experts in local markets, but a local bank can. If a local bank has three or five branches and they happen to be based in Philadelphia or New York or Chicago or wherever they may be, and they know that market, they're going to be more comfortable doing a project in that market because they know the market.

[00:27:21] They'll be able to tell you, “No, this neighborhood's good. Now, I won't touch that other neighborhood.” They'll have lending criteria almost by zip code. Whereas a national player like a Wells Fargo or Bank of America simply can't. They create uniform policy and they apply it universally across their entire ecosystem. It doesn't matter whether you're in Iowa or California, the rules are the same. That's why the big banks are a little bit more difficult to work with. 

Ney Torres: [00:27:50] That is true. Very good, Victor. I am very conscious of your time. I do respect your time. So, I want to finish this show today. Well, everybody just found how you can create infinite rates of return every two years probably.

[00:28:04] I think that's a great episode. What will you say to somebody that's hearing this concepts for the first time thinking about, you know, “I want financial independence or change my source of income.”? What would you say to them? 

Victor Menasce: [00:28:17] It really, a couple of things. I mean, what I've discovered in life is it doesn't matter what it is that you want to do. You really need three things to accomplish that. 

[00:28:25] Number one, you need the knowledge. And you're listening to this podcast. You're getting some knowledge, you're getting some information, and that's great. But I've got bad news for you. It's not enough. But it's essential. You've got to have it. So, you need number one, the knowledge.

[00:28:38] Number two. You need the emotional drive to make that thing happen. Connected with that, you've got to eliminate whatever emotional obstacles that are getting in your way. 

[00:28:48] And then number three, and this is the most important and also the most overlooked, is you've got to be in the right environment. So, if you want to become a real estate investor, you want to become a real estate developer, you've got to go hang out with other real estate investors, go hang out with other real estate developers. Spend quality time with them. Because once you become immersed in that environment, everything that seems foreign to you now, after a period of time, will seem natural and normal and routine. And once you're in that environment, everything becomes visible. Everything becomes clear. 

[00:29:21] And there's a reason why the top figure skaters in the world, when they compete for the Olympics, they don't train in their home country. They train in one of two skating rinks, one in Montreal and one in Barrie, Ontario. It doesn't matter if you're from Japan or Russia. They all train together. Even though they compete, they all train together at a couple of different skating rinks.

[00:29:39] And it's by getting yourself in that environment that you become excellent at what you do. So, it doesn't matter whether you want to go and become a figure skater or you want to become a real estate investor, you want to become a cyclist, whatever, get in that environment. 

Ney Torres: [00:29:55] Perfect. Thank you so much. And Victor, finally, where can they find you?

Victor Menasce: [00:29:59] You can reach me at http://www.victorjm.com/. So that's my website. Very simple, victorjm.com. And I have The Real Estate Espresso Podcast, a daily show, seven days a week. It's available on 20 different platforms, whether it's Apple podcasts or Google or Spotify, or Stitcher, lots of different platforms. So, wherever you listen to podcasts on either Apple, Android, Mac, or windows, you'll be able to find it. The Real Estate Espresso Podcast. Spelled like the Italian coffee espresso, E-S-P-R-E-S-S-O. 

Ney Torres: [00:30:34] Perfect. And I really recommend it. It’s the best podcast on real estate I can suggest to anybody. Thank you so much for your time, Victor. And don't miss the next episode where Victor and I are going to talk about creating a podcast and what impact does that have in your business. Thank you. 

Victor Menasce: [00:30:52] Thank you Ney.

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